Oral history of Thomas Wai Sun Wu, DDS.

McClain, Laurene Wu

I took the oral history of my father, Thomas Wai Sun Wu, over the course of several days in July 1994 at my parents' home in San Francisco. My father was born in San Francisco in 1915, so at the time of the oral history he was seventy-nine years old. I questioned him about his immediate family, particularly his father, Rev. Daniel Gee Ching Wu (Ng Gee Ching), and mother, Won King Yoak, who helped to found two Chinese-oriented Episcopalian churches--one in San Francisco and the other in Oakland; what Chinatown was like in the early to mid-1900s; the musical bands in which he was a major player; the relationships between the Chinese and other racial-ethnic groups in San Francisco; his education as a dentist; his public life as a leader in Chinatown and San Francisco; and eventually, his participation in state and national organizations. The oral history that follows concentrates less on family and more on Chinatown and his public life. My mother, Helen Hoh Wu, was present during most of the taping of the oral history.

1. EARLY CHILDHOOD IN CHINATOWN

When you were a young boy, what area did Chinatown encompass?

The Chinese were concentrated near Sacramento and Grant [Avenues]. No Chinese could cross California Street. And that's only one block from Sacramento. No Chinese could cross Broadway And most Chinese just went as far as Pacific, and not even the block between Pacific and Broadway.

When you say "no Chinese could cross," does that mean that there were barriers set up or that it was dangerous?

It's dangerous because Caucasians always beat up Chinese; Chinese people got beaten up for no reason. The [Caucasian] people just hated to see Chinese.

Was it dangerous for you to go to school? Or did you go to school just in Chinatown?

I went to school in Chinatown--Commodore Stockton School, at that time called Oriental School. And the Chinese people couldn't go anyplace else, not even Spring Valley or any other schools. We had to go to Oriental School, which is Commodore Stockton now.

Was that Oriental School located right in Chinatown?

Yes, on Washington Street above Stockton.

Did you have all Chinese teachers at that school?

No, no. We never had Chinese schoolteachers.

Let's talk about your elementary school experience at the Oriental School. You said you had all Caucasian teachers. Did they allow you to speak Chinese?

Whether they allowed us or not, we all spoke Chinese in school. We never spoke English in school.

The classes, though, were conducted in English?

In English.

What did they teach you? Was it mainly about America or did you learn something about China, too?

No, it's all America.

How did the teachers treat the students at that school?

Not bad. The principal, Mrs. O'Neill, liked Chinese very much and she even helped my father to teach in church.

So you went up to sixth grade at that school?

Yeah, but I didn't go to Oriental School at that time until the second grade. [First] I went to the Presbyterian church school to start learning English. Then starting in second grade, I went to the Oriental School.

I see. So the Presbyterian school was a private school?

A private school from the Chinese church on Stockton Street.

Why did your parents send you to that school first, before sending you to the Oriental School?

They were afraid that I might not be treated well at the Oriental School. At that time it was very hard for Chinese people to be anywhere because Caucasians or non-Chinese didn't care for Chinese people.

[FIGURE 1 OMITTED]

So did you spend all your time growing up in Chinatown, or were there times when you left Chinatown?

No, all the time in Chinatown.

[The discussion continues about individual family members--his mother, Won King Yoak, and his three sisters, Mary, Lilla, and Elizabeth. Excerpted in the following are his memories of his father, Rev. Daniel Gee Ching Wu, and Christianity in Chinatown.]

2. FATHER, REVEREND DANIEL WU, AND CHRISTIANITY IN CHINATOWN

Were the people who came to the English and Americanization classes that your father started at the church all Christians?

No. Very, very seldom did we have baptism. The people [would] rather not join a church.

Did they ever tell you why they didn't want to convert to Christianity?

Yeah, because people looked down upon Christians in Chinatown.

I see. So what did most of the people believe in, if they had a religion?

Believed in Buddhism. And there were a lot of Buddhist temples in Chinatown. In fact, while Waverly Place was only two blocks long, there were many Buddhist temples on that street.

Were there more temples than there were churches? yes. There was our Episcopal church, then the Presbyterian church, and later on the Methodist and Congregational churches were built.

Now, where was the Presbyterian church located?

Located on Stockton Street between Clay and Washington.

And then the Methodist church?

Methodist church on the corner of Washington and Stockton, and Congregational church was just across the street from Portsmouth Square.

You mentioned that the church did grow, that there were more people who came. What did your father do to attract the people? He visited them every single day. He would go to--there were very few Chinese families, but he visited every family and he visited all the single men at the many single men's quarters in Chinatown. The Wong family had [a] single men's quarter and the Ng family had [a] single men's quarter. That's where they lived; maybe six to ten would live in one room.

Now, these men had come from China to work here in the United States. What kind of work did these men do?

Common labor ... in fact, quite a few of them worked for the railroad. In fact, across [the] United States there were Chinese laborers at that time; they built the railroad across the United States. And in California, all the hard work was done by Chinese. They called that "coolie labor." They weren't paid high wages. They were paid just enough money for them to save to go back to China. Going back to China cost them less than a thousand dollars, and a lot of them saved up to a thousand dollars. Then they went back to China.

Did these men stay in China, or did they come back to the United States?

They didn't come back. The Chinese Exclusion Act prevented that.

Did these men try to get married while they were here? yeah, yeah, but they could not, though.

What was the reason why they could not marry?

The law prohibited Chinese from marrying any other race other than their own. And the law wouldn't allow Chinese women to come to [the] United States.

3. COMING OF AGE: MUSIC, MONEY, AND PHOTOGRAPHY

When did you start playing the piano?

My sisters were taking lessons from a teacher from Grace Cathedral. I kept on listening for the way they played, and gosh, you know, when they practiced, I followed what they were doing. And I could play better than they could. So I never did take lessons in playing the piano.

How come they were able to take lessons and you didn't take any lessons?

By choice. I guess the non-Chinese music teachers wanted to teach girls instead of teaching me. And I was too busy working anyway, because I brought back money to help support the family.

What kind of work did you do?

Anything that I could find. I used to shine shoes, five cents a pair of shoes, down at--anyplace, I didn't care where. I would go to different restaurants, different places where there were some people, whether they were Chinese or not, I didn't care; I was shining shoes. And then I delivered newspapers. And then later on I played piano for a nightclub.

Were you selling Chinese newspapers?

American papers. I was selling Chinese newspapers, too. Selling newspapers and making half a cent per copy of paper that I sold.

Where did you sell the newspapers?

Anyplace, anyplace--not street corners; I didn't yell. But I went into people's stores and I didn't go to their homes; just stores and where there was any gathering. I went there just to make money, enough money for myself.

Did you do this because you wanted to, or did you do it because your parents asked you to do it?

No, my parents never asked me. I looked for my own jobs and then I made my own money and I tried not to use my father's money at all. In fact, I went to school without using my father's money. I told him, "I'm going to support myself through school and [I'd] like to be a doctor."

When you brought home money, did you give it to your parents?

Yeah. Every time, whenever I had money, I always gave it to them. I gave it to them and when I needed money, I would ask them for it.

How did you teach yourself how to play the piano? Did you read some books?

Oh yeah, I used to go to the San Francisco Public Library on Grove Street, and on the fourth floor was the music section. And I used to check out those music books. A friend of mine whose father owned a store on Mission Street ... gave me a book called The Encyclopedia of Music. And that's the best book I ever had!

What was your friend's name?

Herbert Choy.

So you learned from reading books?

The music section of the library had a piano and you had to sign in to use it. You could play the piano for, like, fifteen minutes or half an hour and then somebody else would sign [up] for [a] certain time, and so forth. So I learned how to play the piano that way.

Did you have a piano at home, too, that you were able to play? Yeah. Not at our home above the church, but the church downstairs had one, so I lived upstairs and came downstairs to play the piano.

Did you have any other hobbies that you enjoyed when you were young?

Yeah, I tried to do everything: photography, anything. One time I stayed in the darkroom to do my photography and developing pictures and so forth until my mother got sore and said, "You didn't sleep at all!" She gave me hell for doing things myself.

That was on Clay Street when you started your interest in photography. Did you have your own camera?

I tried to have my own camera and I bought myself an Argus. At that time it cost ten dollars for the Argus and I bought a used one from a friend of mine. This man's last name was Bishop. And he sold me a very inexpensive camera that he didn't want anymore.

How did you learn how to do photography and development?

Oh, [I had] to read books. I kept on buying books and subscribed to magazines on photography.

When did you first play piano for money, professionally?

We formed an orchestra. Some of the Chinese musicians were from Sacramento, but the ones in San Francisco, like Harry D. K. Wong and I, tried to form a musical club, so we formed the Cathay Club. I got so interested in the Cathay Club that we would meet every week and then pretty soon we tried to form an orchestra. We formed an orchestra with four people and later on we expanded the orchestra until we had a twelve-piece orchestra. Vincent Chin, a very well-to-do person, played the saxophone; William Chan played the saxophone, he's still alive; Edmund Jung, he played the trumpet; and his brother Robert Jung played the saxophone. Andy Wong played the trumpet, a good one, too! And D. K. Wong was a drummer. We practiced at our church when the church wasn't being occupied.

About how old were you when you started playing with these other musicians?

I was going to Francisco Junior High at that time.

Did you play for any social occasions?

Yeah, if people hired us; or if no one hired us, we played ... once a year at a Christmas program in our church.

Did you ever charge money for your playing?

There was a musicians' union in San Francisco, Musicians' AFML Local 6, but they didn't allow Chinese to join and they picketed us. When we were playing at the Sky Room, Andy Wong owned the Sky Room. We played there, and then the pickets were downstairs picketing with signs that said "Unfair to Union Labor."

So they picketed you, but you were not allowed to join the union. What happened after that?

Yeah, I tried to join the union. And quite a few of us had to join the Musicians' Union in Sacramento and transfer our membership to San Francisco. Somehow when I talked to the people in Local 6 San Francisco Musicians' Union, they couldn't even find any record of the Chinese people that were members of the Musicians' Union.

So Sacramento Musicians' Union was willing to take Chinese?

Yes, but it cost us a little more money.

About how much?

Hundred dollars.

Per year?

The membership cost a hundred dollars and then you were supposed to pay 25 percent of your paychecks to the union.

When did you join the Sacramento union?

When I was about fifteen years old. Long time ago.

Did you play only the piano?

Yes, with the orchestra.

I know that there are bands that marched in Chinatown for funerals--

I used to play the trombone in those bands.

And how did you learn how to play the trombone?

Same way that I learned the piano--keep on playing and get books. And no one taught me how to do it, except that I read about different positions of the trombone. And then the only reason why I picked up the trombone is because I could borrow a trombone from a friend of mine that used to play in a band. But he had a trombone that he wasn't using so I borrowed it from him until he wanted it back. I gave it back to him, but I used the same trombone for funeral services, you know, when they hired the Cathay band for funerals and so forth and each one of us would get a dollar for playing for the funeral.

4. HITCHHIKING AND SAN MATEO JUNIOR COLLEGE

Now you mentioned that you went to San Mateo Junior College. How did you happen to go to San Mateo rather than a school closer to your house?

At that time, there was no junior college in San Francisco and I found out that San Mateo Junior College charged no tuition to students from San Francisco. There was no junior college over in the East Bay and there was none in San Francisco. After I became a dentist, San Francisco City College was built.

How did you get transportation to San Mateo?

I had to hitchhike. It cost money to go down to San Mateo. It cost students twelve and one-half cents to go to San Mateo from San Francisco. That was a lot of money for me, so [I'd] rather get up early in the morning, like around 5:00 or 5:30 at the latest, to go to the highway. I walked down to near Bayshore Highway and hitchhiked down there. Lots of times, drivers for different companies would pick me up because I'd be carrying schoolbooks.

Were these Caucasian drivers?

Yes, and a lot of time the same person would pick me up. I even hitchhiked back to help my father with the Americanization school around seven o'clock at night.

Did these drivers who picked you up talk to you?

Yes. They're very nice, too.

And these were Caucasians?

Yes.

By the time you went to San Mateo Junior College, was there less prejudice against Chinese?

No, there was a lot of prejudice. I couldn't find a place to eat lunch so I had to bring my lunch to school. The only cafeteria that we had at the San Mateo Junior College was a cafeteria that was owned by some people that wouldn't allow a Chinese to go into that restaurant, and there's one restaurant that allowed Chinese to go. It was called the Bayshore Restaurant on Third Avenue but it was very expensive, so I had to bring my own lunch.

Were there other Chinese students at San Mateo?

Yes. Edmund Jung was one of them.

Were you friends at that time?

Yes, we were.

Was he hitchhiking to get to San Mateo, also?

Once in a while, but his father was quite well-to-do so his father bought a used Oakland--that's the name of the car-- and then I, instead of hitchhiking, paid Edmund twenty-five cents a week to take me down to San Mateo, and then he'd wait until he got a full load of people to drive back to San Francisco. So he was making some money from us.

5. PURSUING DENTISTRY AS A CAREER

Was there anybody in Chinatown you especially admired who was a doctor? How did that idea come into your mind?

There was a person that was going to dental school; we called him Cowboy Lok. He used to belong to the Cathay Band and he was going to school to become a dentist. So I kind of admired that person that had gone through school and done something like that. There was so much discrimination against Chinese that I wanted to do something where I could be a boss and nobody could boss me. I went to dental school because of that. One of the persons that I admired was Dr. Theodore Lee. And another person that I admired was Dr. Chang Wah Lee. He was a dentist. He went through school the hard way, too, and he helped my father to teach [at the] Americanization school while he was going to dental school.

When you were applying to dental school, did you feel it was going to be difficult to get in because you were Chinese?

I received pretty good grades when I went to San Mateo Junior College. I applied to the University of California Dental School in San Francisco, and lo and behold, the head of the dental school happened to be Episcopalian and a member of Grace Cathedral, so Dean Gresham of the Cathedral wrote a letter to help me with my application to dental school. The dental school had a quota system and the quota for Jewish boys was no more than 15 percent. And then for Chinese there was no quota at all, but when I went to dental school there was only one other Chinese that was there--John Wong.

Do you happen to know how he managed to get in?

No. When I met him at dental school he was my classmate, but we didn't talk to each other too much. He was from Marysville.

Did he speak Chinese?

He spoke some Chinese, but not too well.

After he graduated from dental school, did he practice in San Francisco?

On Powell and Clay, and I practiced down on Kearny Street.

You didn't have to have a complete four-year college education before applying to dental school? You could apply after just two years?

Two years. And it's four years of dental school with no internship. For medical school it was five years and about two years of internship: altogether seven years.

When you went to dental school, how were you treated by the professors?

There was only one professor that wasn't nice, but the rest of them were pretty nice. In fact, I think they circulated the story that my father was a minister because there weren't too many Chinese going to a dental school, and the dean of the school happened to be Episcopalian and a few of the teachers were Episcopalians, and they found out that my father was a minister so they didn't treat me badly. However, I couldn't even get a B average. They always gave me a C ... just a passing grade.

Now, do you think you got the Cs because they were prejudiced or because it was hard for you?

Yeah, they were prejudiced. Because on the State Board examination, I was the first one to finish the examination in my class. And then, a few times, the professor would say, "Let me take a look at your book." They would take a look at my book and they wouldn't say anything. I knew that when they didn't say anything, I passed.

Well, did you fail to pass any of the classes?

No, I passed. I passed every single one.

Now, when you were at dental school, were there any Black students there?

There was one Black student.

And then, when you were at San Mateo Junior College, were there any Black students there?

Quite a few because San Mateo Junior College had a football team that won the championship and so forth, and there were Black students that were good athletes. But no Chinese [athletes].

Tell me what you did with your dental education right after you graduated. Did you work with other dentists or did you open up your practice at that point?

I opened up my own office in 1939.

Who gave you the money to open up the practice? Or did you save up that money?

The dental supply houses were very nice to graduates and, of course, they expected to get business from the graduates later on. The companies always had a long-term loan for graduates where no money was required to get equipment from them. They required, however, a down payment for x-ray machines. My father had a life insurance policy, and he cashed out the policy for approximately six hundred dollars, which was used as a down payment for the x-ray machine.

Where was the office?

The office was at 916 Kearny near Jackson.

Were there other Chinese dentists?

Dr. Theodore Lee, Dr. Chang Wah Lee, a Dr. Ling, Dr. Dan Lee on Broadway, a Dr. Sang, and myself--six.

How did you try to build up your practice?

My father knew the editors of the Chinese newspaper. He wrote an article that said, "I am Reverend Daniel Wu and I want to make an announcement that my son graduated from University of California Dental School." He indicated the location of my office. That announcement brought in some patients.

Did you have a hard time in the first year or did the practice start very quickly?

It wasn't bad. In fact, I recovered everything that was spent to open an office the first year.

How long, how many days each week, did you work?

Every day including Sundays after church, when I would go down to the office to make sure that if someone needed or phoned me, I would be there.

Did you have a dental assistant in that first year?

My dental assistant is right here [gestures toward wife, Helen]. She helped a lot.

Were most of your patients from Chinatown?

Yes, but eventually I had many Filipino patients.

Were Filipinos living on Kearny Street where your office was located?

That area used to be called Manila Town.

Were there any Filipino dentists in that area?

No. There was one Filipino dentist and he was located up in Japantown.

How did you build up your dental practice?

It's mostly public relations on my part. I worked with many organizations and people heard of my name. Many people also knew my father and his church. I developed a pretty good practice with members of my church, plus the people around my office.

6. EMBRACING PROFESSIONAL AND CIVIC ACTIVITIES

Now. You mentioned that you participated in a number of organizations. What organizations did you get involved in?

First of all, naturally, I belonged to the [California] Dental Association--the local association, state association--and also the American Dental Association. I became pretty active with the San Francisco Dental Society I worked my way up until the United States declared war at that time. I had to quit because I was on a Selective Service board. However, later on I became the president of the San Francisco Dental Society

Do you remember when you became the president of that dental society?

About 1960.

What other offices did you hold before that time, or what committees did you join before that time?

I joined the Masonic Order and eventually received the highest degree that it offered, and I was quite active with the Chinese Episcopal Church. I joined many local associations, such as the Eng Family Association, where I served as president for two terms.

Did you participate in civic organizations?

I was president of the San Francisco Library Commission and chaired the city's Board of Permit Appeals. [Author's note: He also served on the boards of On Lok Senior Health Services, the Metropolitan and Chinatown YMCAs, the Chinese American Citizens Alliance, and the National Conference of Christians and Jews; became president of the California Dental Alumni Association; and chaired the United States Small Business Association Advisory Council.]

Who appointed you to the San Francisco Library Commission? Mayor George Christopher encouraged me to participate in city government.

How did you meet George Christopher?

I was a part of a group that would have lunch every single Saturday and we would go to Christopher Dairy. One time we were [saying] that somebody in our group should run for mayor. George Christopher at that time wasn't very active in politics.

Did you have a name for this group? Was it like a club that met there at the dairy?

Oh, no, we didn't have a name.

Who were the people in that group?

Just friends of George Christopher. Almost everyone was Greek except me. They called me "Wugopolus" [laughter].

Where was Christopher Dairy?

Third Street near Townsend.

Did George Christopher run for the Board of Supervisors?

He was a supervisor for many years and then became the president of the Board of Supervisors. one thing that helped him was that he donated excess milk to the people of San Francisco, especially children, you know, in public school. He became quite prominent with many of the poorer families in San Francisco.

Now, after Christopher was elected mayor, he appointed you to the Library Commission. Do you remember what the Library Commission did at that time?

San Francisco had only two branch libraries, one in Chinatown and then one out in the Geneva area. When I was on the Library Commission, we encouraged building new branches. As long as there were children, we should have a library [close by] where children could go to the library to study and so forth. We built, I think, eight new branch libraries in San Francisco in the 1950s to early 1960s.

Were you the first Chinese to serve on the Library Commission? No. I don't remember who the other one was.

Now, after you were on the Library Commission, did you serve on any other commissions?

Oh, yes. The Library Commission was one of the largest commissions in San Francisco, and every mayor used that not as a stepping stone but as a garbage appointment, you know-anybody that the mayor wants to appoint just because of politics, he would appoint to the Library Commission.

Which commissions did you serve on after you were on the Library Commission?

I served on the Public Utilities Commission and also the Board of Permit Appeals.

How did you get involved with Freemasonry?

Many, many years ago, when I was a kid, I used to direct people to points of interest in Chinatown. There was a Shriners Convention [in San Francisco]. I volunteered to show people around Chinatown. There were sightseeing companies that showed people Chinatown, but not the same things that I liked to show them--you know, like the temples, and the family associations, and all those other things that the licensed guides, or so-called licensed guides, would not show. The organizations appreciated the fact that I brought people to understand the Chinese. When I guided the Shriners, I decided that I would like to be a Shriner one day One friend of my father's happened to be a Shriner, and he looked at me and he said, "You're not even a Mason." [Author's note: A person has to be a Mason before becoming a Shriner.] He encouraged some other Masons to sponsor me to the Masonic order.

Do you remember that friend's name?

Greenwall. He was a terrific guy.

Now, you belonged to Paul Revere Lodge.

Yeah, that is a Masonic Order.

When you first joined, were you the only Chinese in the group? There were two of us that were sponsored to Paul Revere Lodge, Mr. Andrew Sue and myself. We were both sponsored by Mr. Greenwall.

I know that you were blackballed. Do you know why you were blackballed?

Yeah, because I was Chinese.

They told you that?

Afterward, one of the past masters of Paul Revere Lodge came over and said to me, " I was the one that put in a blackball for you. I never knew that Chinese people are similar to us. And I thought that we didn't want a Chinese in the lodge." He didn't blackball me the second time, and I got in.

Being one of the first Chinese members, were you scared when you joined this organization?

No, in fact, I was very proud. The night that I received my third degree and became a full-fledged member, I was real proud.

When you joined an organization or got involved in a civic activity in which you might have been the only Chinese, did you feel that you were making a breakthrough for your race?

Oh, yes. In fact, any place where I didn't see Chinese, I wanted to examine that particular organization to see why there were no Chinese. I wanted to see more Chinese participating in different affairs in San Francisco.

Were you unusual at that time?

Yes. When I was very young and wanted to be a guide in Chinatown, I learned to respect many people of different races. However, in Chinatown I often went to organizations that had no Caucasians. There were just Chinese, and I didn't understand how come not more people went to different organizations. I wanted to participate in almost anything so that I could show people that even though I didn't look like them, I could still do the same things as well as they could ... such as [being] a dentist.

And do you feel that when you joined these organizations, these people received you well?

Oh, yes.

At every organization?

At many of the organizations, people told me they didn't know that there were persons who were similar to them, but didn't look like them. I think I had helped to break down some discrimination barriers against Chinese.

Did you feel that people who came after you benefited from the breakthrough to Caucasian organizations?

Yes.

[Author's note: He became the parliamentarian for various dental associations and the Freemasons.]

How did you get interested in being a parliamentarian? Or how did you learn how to become a parliamentarian?

I liked to learn more about the laws of our local government and then, also, the law of the state and the federal government, so I made it a point to learn more about the Constitution and how you can connect it to various levels of government. I went to night school just to learn the rules of conducting a discussion or debate.

Were you active in the University of California Dental Alumni Association?

Yes. I attended meetings and worked on different committees. I got to know people. I just participated as much as I could just to help the organization build up. So over time, people recognized me and wanted to elect or appoint me to different positions in the organization.

Now, the San Francisco Junior Chamber of Commerce made you the Outstanding Young Man of the Year in the late 1950s. How did that happen?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That was quite a few years ago when Mr. Roger Deas was quite active with the Junior Chamber of Commerce, and he taught public speaking and I learned public speaking from him. He encouraged me to attend some of the meetings of the Junior Chamber of Commerce so that later on people would understand the Chinese. Soon after, the Chamber made me the outstanding young Man of the year.

Well, after you got involved in public speaking and your civic activities, do you think your personality was different from what you were like when you were younger, as a young boy?

I think so. I did meet a lot of people and was encouraged to do a lot of things for people and [it broadened] my scope of friendship.

In terms of your own personality, do you think you became a different person?

I always think myself to be the same; I don't think I've changed as far as my personality is concerned, but my personality probably did change.

Were you active in the Chinatown YMCA?

Very much so. I served on the YMCA Board [of Directors] for over twenty years. My good friend Mr. Henry Tom, who was the executive secretary of the Chinese Branch YMCA, always liked to see me, and to encourage me to be active with the YMCA. In fact, people saw us so closely together that people thought that we were brothers.

Now, I also know that when you were a young man, you went with your father to Angel Island. What was the purpose of these visits to Angel Island?

Chinese people were interned in a detention area. Especially the unions didn't want the Chinese people in America at all. And they always called the Chinese people lower-class citizens. My father knew a lot of people that were with the Immigration and Naturalization [Service]. They appointed my father to interpret. once newcomers were allowed to immigrate, my father offered his help to them.

7. BERKELEY YEARS

I know that after you married Mom [Helen Hoh Wu] in 1940, you first lived at your parents' church and then lived in Berkeley about a year later. How did you happen to choose Berkeley even though your practice was here in San Francisco?

Real estate was cheaper over there at that time. We bought a house at 1341 Ward Street.

Do you remember how much you bought the house for?

I borrowed the money from my mother and I paid her back. We bought the house for three or four thousand dollars.

You have told me that most of the people who lived in the neighborhood were Black. Were the people nice to you?

Yes, next door at the corner house was an MD, Dr. Coleman. He and his family were Black. They were very nice people.

Were most of the people living there professional people?

Yes, Dr. Coleman was an MD and his brother planned to open a funeral parlor in San Francisco. He was learning embalming at that time. The brother rode in my car almost every day to San Francisco, and he paid me twenty-five cents each time.

8. REPUBLICAN PARTY POLITICS

How did you get involved in the Republican Party?

I always like the Republicans because of their past history. They always helped the Chinese people in China, so I registered myself as a Republican and I didn't want to change.

What are your feelings about the Democratic Party?

Well, the Democratic Party gave away a lot of things. They were very popular because of Albert Chow being a very loyal person in the Democratic Party, who actually helped the State Emergency Relief Administration, at that time S-E-R-A, to help the Chinese workers get money and relief for the Chinese people, especially the garment workers.

Now, why did you go to the Republican Convention in 1952?

I was elected as a delegate from San Francisco.

Were you supporting any candidate in that year?

Earl Warren, who was governor of California.

9. COFOUNDING THE CHINESE HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF AMERICA

I know that you were one of the founders of the Chinese Historical Society of America in 1963. How did that happen?

Tommy Chinn was the editor and publisher of the Chinese Digest. He wanted to talk to me about the history of the Chinese people. He asked, "What should we do?" There were five of us at that time--Tommy Chinn, H. K. Wong, C. H. Kwock, Chingwah Lee, and myself. We wanted to organize a club or something. And then, later on, one of us--I don't remember which one of us--just said, "Well, let's have an organization to expound on the history of the Chinese people." And we all agreed. Then, we talked about getting membership and made some organizational plans. C. H. Kwock was a good organizer. He organized the Chinese Tennis Association, so they called it Chi-Ten-Ah. He's the one that suggested the name of Chinese Historical Society to us.

We asked friends to join with us whenever we had a meeting and pretty soon, we wrote the constitution. We all signed the constitution for the Chinese Historical Society of America. We met at the Chinatown YMCA for a while. People outside of Chinatown did not want us to meet in their area.

10. PERSPECTIVE ON FAMILY AND CIVIC ACTIVITIES

You sound like you had a very active life during the 1940s, '50s, '60s, and '70s with your dental activities, the civic organizations, the YMCA, the Chinese Historical Society, and the Republican Party, to name a few. Did you ever feel that you were sacrificing your family life for all these activities?

I felt that I had sacrificed much of my family life for many of the organizations. I do remember sitting by myself thinking about what I had done and what I had sacrificed with my family. I do remember that.

But you must have set your priority on these activities. Why did you feel so strongly about all of these activities?

Because my father always talked about the history of the Chinese people and how we were persecuted and discriminated against, and what we needed to do to counteract all the anti-Chinese feeling. And because of all those things, I became very active in organizations to counteract anti-Chinese feelings.

Preface by Laurene Wu McClain

Laurene Wu McClain is a history professor at City College of San Francisco and a practicing attorney. Her writings on Chinese Americans have been published in China and the United States.