A drop of goodness in a sea of insanity - music group NOJO founders and co-leaders

The talents of the co-leaders of NOJO need to be recognized by a larger audience. This interview with pianist Paul Neufeld and guitarist Michael Occhipinti was conducted as they were completing a new recording.

H.H. [to Michael] I gather that you feel composing is as natural to you as the actual playing itself.

M.O. Yes, I think it has always come pretty naturally, since I started playing music I always wanted to write songs. Originally it was pop songs but eventually it was jazz.

H.H. Is one more important than the other?

M.O. No, I like to develop both of them to the fullest, but I don't think one is more important than the other.

P.N. I often feel that the writing seems to be more important, because I find myself doing more, just like what Michael's talking about, there are days when you just don't feel like practicing and you end up writing instead, it happens to me a lot more...[laughing] than I care to admit, so I'll end up writing for a whole day and end up throwing it away just because I don't like it, but you know, I would sooner do that than practice. But then as soon as I go out doing gigs, especially if I'm doing something creative I realize how much I enjoy playing for people and...(Paul hesitates) then I'll do my best practicing after I do a bad performance. [we all laugh] I guess I lean more towards the writing than I do toward the playing.

H.H. [to Michael] Is this what drew you both together in NOJO?

M.O. Paul was one of the first guys I met at York [York University]. On the first day, we were in the same workshop, and I think we liked talking tO each other, after all we are both reasonably articulate human beings, [laughing] and share a lot of common concerns and so it was easy to get along with each other. We took a couple of composition classes together and at that time we both realized we liked the same aesthetic things, but there is enough differences too, and I found that out when we were in our final year at York and we took composition with David Mott. Our final exam pieces were totally at the opposite ends of the spectrum, mine was a piece dedicated to Kenny Wheeler and very much in that style of writing which I was really into at the time, and Paul's composition eventually turned up on the first NOJO recording, a much more textural sort of thing, not so much of a melody that you could grab on to, maybe more Mingus or Ellington [looking at Paul].if I can speak for you, so we were totally different, yet we both liked what each other was doing, and we talked about putting a Big Band together because there was no one into the things that we are into.

H.H. The blending of those ideas fits very well into that concept, so it's almost a natural thing that you should meet and work together.

P.N. In our first year of performances we got reviews that kind of painted us into a corner a little bit because Michael was into a kind of lush, melodic writing and I was into a darker textural and rhythmic kind of thing and at first it seemed as if Occhipinti does this and Neufeld does that and we both really knew it wasn't the case but it just happened to be the sets that a couple of reviewers saw, but now nobody says that. I don't think we influence each other so much as inspire each other to do other things, you know. Michael will come in with a new chart and I'll react to it in some way or another, like yeah I've been thinking about doing something like that, or it leads me to want to do something completely different.

H.H. Do you ever suggest to each other that the chart be changed?

M.O. Not a lot, we never really have to. I think one thing is that neither one of us works that fast, we both put a lot of care into each chart, which isn't to imply that everything we write is perfect, but I would say that when you work that slowly, when you do concentrate on a chart that much it tends to have most of the bugs worked out. Now that we have a bit of a book there are charts we are never inclined to pull anymore, because we don't feel like it or that was from a certain time period, but I don't think there's ever been any duds.

H.H. Isn't it important that you show your listeners how far you have progressed? Isn't it nice to play those charts once in a while?

M.O. Sometimes it is, I think though it's hard, because whatever you wrote most recently you want to hear that, and with these two CD's out now, there are certain tunes that I feel has run it's course, you know, I don't feel like playing that one, but there are guys in the band who say, 'let's play that'

H.H. How do you give the musicians in the band a voice other than their playing, when they request something or want to write or make changes?

M.O. [laughing out loud] They are not allowed to write anything!

H.H. Oops! Wrong question [laughing].

P.N. There are very few complaints from the band. We are a pretty happy lot, we all generally get along very well.

H.H. Well, the music is so satisfying, if I was a musician in your band I would just want to play the charts because I find it so intriguing.

M.O. Well, we do ask for input in terms of, 'How are the dynamics in this section...can we try it another way,' just players' concerns really. Some members would suggest it might be better up an octave, and we are, as leaders, both eager to have it...

P.N. Because they are the musicians who have to play it, so if we have written something that's hard to play or uncomfortable on the horn, or whatever, then we are best taking their advice.

H.H. Yeah, but if it's hard to play, isn't that a challenge to their ability?

P.N. [laughing loudly] Well, it's all hard to play. Sometimes it is hard to play, and becomes a challenge and they enjoy that challenge, and sometimes it is a pointless challenge, if you do this to it, it'll be easier and you'll get the same result and let's not fuss with it. So sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not.

H.H. Outside of NOJO, which unfortunately for us doesn't get as much exposure as it should, how do you support yourselves? I presume you each have your own groups, but how, in today's economy, can you possibly support yourselves - other than your two group projects?

M.O. Paul does a lot more teaching than I do, I have done a lot of musical theatre in the last two years, and that pays the bills. I was on the road with an Andrew Lloyd Webber show and subbed for Rob Piltch in Crazy for You in Toronto, and that's helpful and we both do a lot of duo and trio gigs, and the duo gigs sometimes can become annoying, because sometimes there are months when I can't play with a drummer.

H.H. Does that affect you musically?

M.O. Yes I think so, it is a good thing playing with bass player, duos, but when I play with a drummer I find my playing changes completely, it becomes freer, because with a duo you are kind of responsible for the time, trying to lay down a groove a little bit more, but with a drummer you have that space so that you can go off in a different direction, because someone's laying it down.

P.N. There's more sounds too, so you can play silence on your end and it won't be silence, you'll hear the cymbals.

H.H. What motivates you? I know the challenging charts you write for the band is obviously a form of motivation, but there has to be some inbred motivation to remain a musician, to do the things you are doing, to meet those incredible challenges out there in this frustrating musical world?

P.N. Motivation is [pauses]; when we both graduated there was this guy who gave a funny speech about, 'by the time most artists realize that it would be smarter to do something else, they are so ill-equipped to do anything else that they might as well stick with it'. [laughter]

P.N. There is a certain amount of truth in it - if you have the motivation up front - for me it comes out of a desire to make things, I like to do a little woodwork, I just like to make stuff. The main focus for me is the way it comes out in music, I have a desire to create something and see it happen.

H.H. When you are creating something tangible or physical, that's something to look at, but with a lot of the music that you create, unless you record it, it disappears.

P.N. [laughing]. It's beautiful because of that.

H.H. I find that listening to recordings, because I listen to so much, I hear a soloist doing a certain thing and I find myself saying, 'I wish he/she had gone this way or that way or I wish they had kept the brass section in here a little longer' yOU know, but that's not a musician's concept, that's a listener's concept so I can imagine you would have that same feeling too.

P.N. Yes, and when you listen to other people's music, that's the way you're influenced by other people. You hear aspects of it that...relate to you or what you hear internally, and so you'll take that and discard the rest.

M.O. I think that happens with our own music as well, I'll listen to a recording, one of NOJO's CDs and I'll think, yeah, that's great, but there's this other thing which we haven't done yet, and that's how you get the motivation for the next composition, and I think one of the successful things about the band, in terms of how people react to it is that's why every chart is a little different from the one that comes before it, and it's partially because Paul and I go home with the same feeling, now that I've done that what can I do differently for the next one, and I think we both feel an obligation to make the chart that follows the one before it different, and therefore in the whole repertoire Paul will have a certain amount of charts of his that are coming from a certain place, and the same with me, but.they never happen back-to-back. We are constantly reinventing ourselves and revising.

H.H. There must be certain musicians who inspire you individually or collectively, then and now?

P.N. We have analogies drawn between our music and other people's and it's usually somebody we haven't listened to.

H.H. Well, I was about to bring some of these names to you.

P.N. Well, I'm thinking specifically about Stan Kenton or Carla Bley, they come up a lot, but Michael and I don't listen to these artists. I listen to a lot of Ellington and Mingus. We both like Mingus a lot. We both like Henry Threadgill a lot. Every time he puts out a record I buy it. He is one of the few guys I really go out of my way to do that. Then there's Monk too. Yeah!

M.O. It's so broad - even Paul hasn't touched on everything he listens to because on top of that you have to add the roots blues.

P.N. We are both quite obsessed with the blues.

H.H. That shows in your writing.

P.N./M.O.[practically in unison]. We' d like to do more if someone hired us!

P.N. I have a blues trio that works all the time-piano, percussion and singer/harmonica player. Boogie-woogie, blues and stomps and that kind of thing, I can do a lot with this kind of thing. It's economical too.

M.O. There's that, and World Music, West African Music. And then there's the jazz too, and most of what I listen to is not big band music, and I would say the same thing for Paul. I don't think either one of us initially thought we would become big band writers.

H.H. That's the way to express the music that you feel inside you, then that's a logical move.

M.O. Yeah, when I went to Banff and heard Kenny Wheeler's big band music, it occurred to me, wow!, I never thought about writing for that many musicians, but it's kinda cool. His writing was very different from what I thought about for big bands, because I was thinking of Dave McMurdo and Rob McConnell, who are both great... But Kenny Wheeler got me thinking, specifically that the guitar could be right up front, on top of the whole orchestra, but when you actually hear that many musicians it is a rush, it is so exciting to stand in front of that many musicians, and once you get a taste of hearing it, it becomes a special thing. It's a totally different thing from the quartet. [long pause, and then laughing]. But to get back to your original question of whom I listen to, these days, I listen to Jim Hall a lot, which should have no impact on my big band writing, but I feel sure it will, and part of that is I'm trying to develop myself at the same time as a guitar player, and then there's Bill Frisell. Bill represents both for Paul and I, someone who is doing what we are trying to do, and that he is open to anything, he is not afraid to incorporate anything he likes, and I think that's what Paul and I marvel at: not only is he a very interesting guitar player, but he's not really concerned if what he's doing at any given moment is jazz. It's a kind of freedom.

H.H. John Scofield and Mike Stern?

M.O. Right, and I think that's healthy to not impose barriers on yourself, and I'm convinced that is what NOJO is all about. We are both totally unafraid. We used to be, we were very nervous about how we were presenting music.

P.N We had a very positive reaction from the players before we started performing, so that was encouraging, because we thought it might have been a more difficult thing.

M.O. And that's how this current line-up came into being because it became apparent who was interested in what we were doing.

H.H. Did you have to change the line-up at given time?

M.O. Yes I think initially, there were some who didn't like it, and they didn't come back, and then every six weeks or so, Paul would phone some people saying, 'Hi, I'm an unknown composer, do you want to come and play some big band music?' And we were surprised how many people said yes, and if they came and they liked it, they wanted to return. It's a fairly young band, but I don't think that the older players wouldn't have liked it, it's just that in our nervousness we called the younger guys first.

H.H. Yes I suppose the younger guys would think of a more contemporary band, whereas the older guys would automatically think of Kenton, Herman, Basie or others from those periods. You mentioned earlier on, Michael, that both of you listen to World Music, and this latest release Fire Water, in many of the tunes I keep hearing music from all sources. I do mean world wide. [there are nods of acceptance from both Paul and Michael] I hear Arabian influences, Spanish and German. [Michael interrupts,. 'It's the Mennonite approach' Paul and Michael look at each other and burst into uncontrollable laughter and I get drawn into it too and join them].

M.O. You are right, but I don't think it's a conscious thing. We don't say, now it's time to draw on my Spanish influences, it just creeps out, and part of that is, when I write, there are times when I write a section and then I say, now what can I do to it and make it a little less obvious, how can I twist it just a little bit, and I'll erase a beat.

H.H. The tune Art to Arthur comes to mind, you have obviously changed that two or three times.

M.O. Right again, it was obviously written for my small band, and then on my own CD I tried to do it as an octet and I still wasn't totally satisfied with it, but now I have trouble playing it with my small group because I want to hear it within the big band context.

H.H. The same might apply to Batteries not Included.

M.O. That's a perfect example of trying to do something that's not so obvious because the first half of that piece is sort of odd time, funk, maybe Steve Coleman-inspired type of thing, and for the second half all I've done is take that quirky melody that's over the funk thing and set it to a slow blues, and in so doing, I get to explore the blues, which I love and still set an odd melody to it; not an obvious blues kind of melody.

H.H. Something a la Don Byron.

M.O./P.N. Well, he's someone we like a lot too.

[I was not aware that NOJO would soon be working with Don Byron as a guest soloist.]

H.H. Other people I know you like would include the Mingus Big Band for sure, and Maria Schneider. There are some influences...

M.O. Well in the latter, there's the Gil Evans connection.

H.H. Sure, he was her mentor.

P.N. We both love Gil, but I haven't heard Maria. But Michael has seen the band perform.

P.N. The same can apply when people bring up the Carla Bley influence too, which we haven't listened to, but I imagine that what is happening is that both Carla Bley and Michael and myself like some of the same stuff.

H.H. There is a definitive influence in your charts from these people. Now I don't hear Kenton, except maybe that brassy approach he was known for.

M.O. We have no comment, because we haven't heard Kenton either. Funny, when I was on the tour last year I was thinking I really should check out Kenton, and I found myself going through his recordings in record stores. But I thought, no, I just can't do it, I just don't want to know. [laughs] I think what people mean when they say we sound like Stan Kenton is the unusual harmonies and metre changes they are hearing, yet the metre changes for me come from listening to Steve Coleman.

H.H. The Federal Government has recently decreed that there must be much more Canadian content on the air than there has been in the past, how do you think this will affect the sales of your recordings and the opportunity to get NOJO more radio and television exposure?

M.O. Well, the rules were changed a few years ago, there used to be jazz shows even on rock stations. It's hard for us to get a national audience. The CBC likes NOJO - programmes such as Jazz Beat and After Hours have exposed our material, but even then it's only once in a while, it's not weekly. Actually our biggest supporter is in college radio, and that's the most jazz I listen to, they are really supportive. Canada is really a tough nut to crack.

H.H. It's a very difficult country to travel across with a band. Even with a government grant to cover some of the expenses, bands have gone out, and the musicians have made no money, some even lost money on the tour. Sure, they got plenty of exposure which hopefully would help them with record sales...

M.O. Right, and with our band, sixteen people, it would be worse. But we will try to develop a Canada Council tour for the fall of 1997, and we are negotiating with a small jazz label in the States for our first NOJO recording and if this comes to fruition it will be released worldwide, and maybe then we can get some European Festivals lined up, and some U.S. bookings also.

H.H. Now that you have some exposure on the World Wide Web, people will want to know more about you and hear you, either live or on CD. Note: NOJO's website is at: hh://www.inmedias.de/auracle/

M.O. We also need to get reviewed in JazzTimes or DownBeat, it's an interesting band and needs that exposure. There are not that many bands doing what we're doing, even in the States, which is ten times bigger than Canada (population-wise). Sure there are some who come to mind, such as Orange then Blue, Either Orchestra and the Vienna Art Orchestra. Bravo! TV in Toronto has done some exposure on Canadian artists, but not enough.

P.N. If you want to make a career doing original music, the market here is simply not big enough that you could do it full time. So if you are going to stay here and not go outwards, you had better be doing a lot of other things to support your creative music efforts, and if you want to do nothing but your creative music efforts, you had better look elsewhere. What I have just said may sound negative, but in actual fact Canada is a great market for the size of it, it's a real supportive and great market, but it's just one market. We are obviously not making pop music, so in order to find an audience for it we must fling it far and wide.

M.O. It's a shame, but one of the things we suffer from is radio formatting is so narrow. It's unbelievable. It is really based on a terrible presumption that people can only handle listening to this one thing. Someone made a remark just recently, someone in the industry: most people he knows have a little bit of variety in their recording collections, even if they are too deep into music, they will have a Billie Holiday CD alongside a Bruce Springsteen, and/or a Celine DionCD, and others making for an eclectic collection, and radio has not geared itself to that. NOJO's music is not the most challenging music in the world, and people who come to listen to us can accept, relate and discover something new. We are a friendly band.

Hal Hill is a Toronto broadcaster and host of the Jazz Canadiana Website. You can E-mail him at: Bebop@istar.ca or visit the website at: http://www.idbt.com/jazzcdn

Recordings: Michael Occhipinti Who meets Who Auracle AURCD 1001 '94; The Rhythm & Truth Brass Band Daddy Long Legs Auracle AURCD 1002 '95; NOJO Neufeld-Occhipinti Jazz Orchestra Auracle AURCD 1003 '95 JUNO Winner: Best Contemporary Jazz Album; NOJO Firewater Auracle AURCD 1004 '96 JUNO Nominee.

New recordings to watch for: Michael Occhipinti Quintet featuring special guest pianist Darrell Grant, due out in December 1997; The Paulist Brothers (Paul's roots blues trio) should be available late '97/early '98); A live album is tentatively set for recording with special guest Don Byron.

COPYRIGHT 1997 Performing Arts and Entertainment in Canada
COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group