Two sides of the same coin: diversity in the classroom

Lester Monts is Senior Vice-Provost for Academic Affairs and Senior Counselor to the President for the Arts, Diversity, and Undergraduate Affairs at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Pedro Luna is an academic counselor in the Office of Supportive Services at Syracuse University in Syracuse, New York, and chair of the Diversity Commission of the Professional and Organizational Development Network in Higher Education (POD).

Interview with Dr. Monts

Berg: Thank you for taking the time to talk to The Community College Enterprise today. We hear a lot about the need for diversity. What does it mean to have a diverse campus?

Monts: I think it means several things happening on several levels. First, there's the representation side. With our proceedings at the Supreme Court, we showed through empirical evidence that students learn in a more diverse environment. That is to say that when they learn in a situation with people unlike themselves, the chances of the learning enterprise being more substantive has pretty much been proven. At another level, we have a lot of new knowledge as a result of people doing research and teaching about issues having to do with diversity. So in other words, our curriculum needs to be infused with diversity in those areas where it fits very well. I think we're being forced into this-and I say "forced" with intention-because the landscape, the demographics of this country are changing dramatically. In order for us to understand the differences amongst us, we have to be in environments where we're in contact with people who are different from ourselves and look at subject matter that introduces us to those differences and apply our various tolerances to those situations and learn from each other.

Berg; You say that students learn in a diverse environment. Why is that?

Monts: For example-I teach courses in music and ethnomusicologyif I'm teaching about Hungarian folk music-and being an African-American trying to explain this-no matter how much I have read about it, I've never been to Hungary. I've never been around a lot of Hungarian people. But if I have a student of Hungarian ancestry in the class where we're discussing these various traditions-whether we're talking about how they celebrate birthdays or weddings or funerals or so forth-the student can offer some insight on the music or the culture that surrounds those kinds of occasions. I think everyone in the class learns from that kind of firsthand experience. By the same token, if I'm teaching a course on Native American music or Native American culture and there are Native American students in the class, they can contribute to the dialogue that ensues around that particular topic.

Berg: If I said that my class is homogeneous rather than heterogeneous, would that mean my students can't have a good experience?

Monts: No, no. I think there are other pedagogies you can use to get at the subject matter. I've consulted widely at universities in that situation, for example the University of North Dakota, where it's a pretty homogeneous kind of setting in terms of the student demographic. But there are all kinds of things you can do-new pedagogies that bring about ways to teach things from an interdisciplinary basis: the use of video, the use of guest lecturers, the use of the kind of literature that will get these points over to students who may not live in a heterogeneous kind of environment now. But as they move out into the work force or seek further education at other institutions, they will confront these things; and it won't be completely unknown to them how to interact with people different from themselves.

Berg: You mentioned video and guest speakers. Let's say I'm a teacher who wants to introduce more diversity into the classroom. Where might I begin that?

Monts: I think it all depends on what you teach. This information is mure prominent in some areas than in others, and I use musical examples because that's what I know. The question might come up, "I teach science," or "I teach mathematics. How does it fit into that?" Well, you could begin in a math class by using word problems; they are very prominent in teaching math today. So, instead of using, say, some run-ofthe-mill statistics problem in word form, why not use a word problem that deals with urban populations? The problem is still the same, but you're using subject matter that a student would have to read about. In a roundabout way, they're reading about, let's say, a demographic issue that involves various racial and ethnic groups, various gender groups and so on and so forth. They still work the math problems, but they also learn about what's going on in an urban setting.

I've taught music appreciation classes for decades. In my early teaching of those courses-I find fault with what I was doing in terms of the topic we're discussing here. You look at the 19th century in western classical music and it's a period we call nationalism which was very much infused with musical folk traditions in various parts of eastern and western Europe. Just how composers collected that information and how they wove it into their compositions is a story about diversity in and of itself-to say nothing of how Bach was influenced by folk music, how Beethoven was very much influenced by Middle Eastern music traditions and how Gluck and even Mozart-all these things are coming to us now in the form of new knowledge that doesn't disrupt the study of a Beethoven symphony, but it gives students greater insight into what was going on in the composers' minds and lets them know that this idea of "cultural borrowing" or what we now call diversity is not something that we just contrived here at the end of the 20th and on into the 21st century.

Berg: I've heard it said that you try to introduce things like that into the curriculum you're actually diminishing it because you have to take something out.

Monts: Oh, no, no, no. I can teach the formal structure of Beethoven's 9th Symphony and talk about the Turkish band, about Turkish instruments, without missing a beat in terms of what a student really needs to know should a question about the structure of Beethoven's 9th Symphony final movement come up on the GRE [Graduate Record Exam].

Berg: It seems you're promoting an integrated curriculum. As a teacher, should want to see how it fits on a daily basis rather than step back and say, "I'm going to have a lesson on Native Americans or African Americans."

Monts: For me, I prefer the infusion model in the classroom rather than having separate courses because that, to some extent, marginalizes the diversity side of things. A lot of it has to do with faculty development as well. Faculty needs to know how to introduce these new materials without giving the students the impression that they're just following some school district mandate or that they're just trying to be politically correct. For example, if you're teaching a course on American literature and you have what some people consider the standards-William Faulkner, Mark Twain, so on and so forth-then all of a sudden you say to the class, "Well, they're pushing this diversity thing so I've included this Maya Angelou stuff," the students are going to have a different attitude about it than if you just present the syllabus and say, "This is great American literature. We're going to look at each one from the perspective of the author and do critical analysis." Then you're off and running. If students get the impression that you're forcing them into a particular way of thinking, there will be a lot of resistance.

Berg: You mentioned faculty development. What kind of things can a faculty development coordinator or instructional designer do to help a faculty member-who was trained very traditionally-take that step?

Monts: First of all, it's a matter of attitude. Any one of us who has survived his graduate program, I mean, there's some talent there somewhere. So people often need to just change their attitudes about how to diversify their classrooms and make people aware of what the issues actually are. Sometimes we go blindly into certain situations. This doesn't have to do with pedagogy or course content, but one of the things we've done here at Michigan is make use of a theatrical troupe. The troupe operates out of our Center for Research and Learning and Teaching (CRLT) which is our faculty teaching support unit. What they do is enact-I should say it's an interactive troupe-various kinds of vignettes that get at various issues. Some of them can be pedagogical; some of them can be just how people get along in class. For example, there's one skit where they show the single female student in a class of engineers, the classic things that happen, the sort of aggressive nature of male engineers, how the professor might single the female student out in terms of what she's wearing and so forth. They do this interactively. They come out and do-based on data that's actually gathered from faculty members and students-all the wrong things. Then they stay in character and have a conversation with the audience, where the audience might say, "Professor, why did you call all the male students 'Mister,' but called the female student by her first name?" Or, "Why did you allow the male students to speak over the female student?" Or they might ask the female student how she felt when the professor ignored her, and it just goes on and on. Then the actors leave the room and when they come back, they correct all those things so the interactivity that goes on is really telling. A lot of faculty members actually sec what is happening in their classes, because many of them will say, "Well, I've experienced that and I must say I didn't handle it quite right." The same thing with subject matter: the point I just raised about how you infuse new, more diverse subject matter into a course has to be done in a manner that doesn't turn students off, doesn't create a spectacle around that new material.

Berg: J was discussing this interview with some of my students and what questions they might ask if they had a chance to talk to you. One student asked an interesting question: "How can a teacher handle the different cultures in a classroom that might not appear to be diverse? For example, 'goths,' 'skaters,' 'preps,' and 'slackers?'" Is that an issue of diversity as far as you are concerned?

Monts: That's a tough one. It's tough for me because I haven't been confronted with that. A lot of the things I'm telling you are coming from my own experience. I think that's different-I guess I wouldn't call it diversity as such, but I would certainly ask everyone in that class to be tolerant of whatever that difference is. There's an expectation in the classroom that everyone is going to behave in a manner in line with what I would consider standard classroom etiquette and if any student stepped out of line-regardless whether he or she is in the groups you named or otherwise-I would have to call attention to what I considered bad behavior. I guess I don't know. I would have to think about it a little bit more.

Berg: When the student's attention came up, my initial reaction was, "Of course that's an issue of diversity," but it's not usually what we think about. Where do we draw the fine when we consider how we promote diversity in the classroom?

Monts: A lot of the diversity issues that I deal with are things that are innately characteristic of people. That is to say, race is innate, ethnicity is innate, some will say sexual orientation is innate. Being a Goth-that's a choice that people are making about a lifestyle. It is not something that is a natural human tendency. Some would argue with me, but I just don't see it because anyone could all of a sudden decide he wants to create a culture or what he considers a culture based on a particular set of behaviors that I would say-in this case-is somewhat contrived.

Berg: There are those who criticize the work you do in promoting diversify. One critic, Stanley Fish, has said that "diversify is a vastly overrated idea and a fraud" and the people really don't want diversity. How would you respond to Dr. Fish?

Monts: I read that statement. Stanley Fish [b. 1938], is near retirement. People on many campuses say these folks need to retire to make room for more assistant professors. So he represents a kind of diversity, in my way of thinking, by the mere fact that he is, at his age, still teaching! Stanley Fish is one of those people who writes very well; he's able to get his thoughts out because he places himself in the center of attention. He has this running column in The Chronicle of Higher Education, so someone is going to pay attention. But I think he's just dead wrong here. I've been to-and sent my associates to-no less than 8-10 diversity summits and higher education associations to talk about diversity. We just had a meeting in Vermont on legal issues in higher education that focused on diversity. I was at the University of Texas last week talking about diversity. This past week I was at Westmont in Santa Barbara talking about diversity, so for him to say that it's a fraud and people aren't interested in it-I suppose he would say that diversity is a cottage industry, but I think not. Stanley makes these rhetorical statements and I think he makes them so people like us will mention his name in the context of these kinds of things, but I don't buy his viewpoint at all.

Berg: The inference is that promoting diversity is not just a rhetorical phrase.

Monts: I think it's real. As we move to a more highly diverse population here in the United States, as the demographics change, we're going to have to become much more aware of diversity. I look at all of the different incidents here on campus. If we don't have a sense of how to work with various diverse groups of students, faculty and staff, we will have a real problem on our hands. I would ask Stanley Fish, what was this case before the Supreme Court all about if it wasn't about diversity?

Berg: I don't knew how Stanley Fish would respond, but some people would say that it was something opportunistic done by aggrieved parties.

Monts: Well.... okay. The defense of the University of Michigan was that we are protecting something that we feel is a very important part of our standard of excellence here and that is diversity.

Berg: Some of the aggrieved parties might say that promoting diversity lessens academic achievement. Could you talk more about how diversity promotes academic achievement?

Monts: We live in a society where there are certain behaviors that are learned as part of a socialization process. That is to say, if you don't learn those kinds of things, then you're going to be outside of the kinds of social interactions that motivate people to move forward. We just had a group of people from industry here at our College of Engineering. I went to greet them and thank them for serving on our advisory committee. One of the things they brought up has to do with what they like to see in the work force, and the kinds of interaction that they see people having and not having in their companies. They want two things from us. Overall they want students who have had some interactions with people different from themselves, and they want students who represent a wide range of ethnicities, genders and so forth, working in their companies. They were very adamant about that.

These folks are looking at things other than what we look at from an academic point of view. They are saying, "If we have to deal with people not knowing how to relate to each other, and we have to pull them offline or out of their offices to go to 'managing diversity' training, that's cutting into our profit margin." It's also saying that industries need people from various backgrounds because they don't sell their goods to a homogeneous group of people. We need ideas about how the products need to be manufactured, structured and disseminated in order to reach the wide range of people who would engage in a particular activity or buy a particular product.

Berg: Is there anything that you would like the readers of the journal to think about that I haven't covered today?

Monts: Readers should consider the general statement that it's incumbent upon higher education institutions to take a lead on fostering awareness of diversity. We are the places where people come to learn, and that learning doesn't necessarily take place just in the classroom and just out of a book. The learning process belongs in a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural environment such as we live in here in the United States. It is absolutely essential that we have an understanding about each other. Otherwise we'll live our lives questioning the behaviors of others, the motivations of others. Diversity teaches that understanding. You can learn those lessons from many different sources. I've had plenty of people say to me, "You know, I really didn't understand African-Americans until I became interested in jazz." I've had AfricanAmerican students say, "I didn't really understand about people in Japan until I started studying Japanese." We're at the particular point when we need to galvanize the whole notion of diversity and make clear to our students its importance in terms of overall education.

Let me point out a couple of other things, because I think we're sort of the last resort for a lot of students. I must say, I'm from Arkansas. I look back on what I read and studied in elementary school, and I know it's quite a bit different now. I participated in Boy Scouts at a young age, and I know what my kids looked at-all of these different clubs and organizations are stressing diversity. Simply having the parents of African-Americans and Asian-Americans and people from other ethnic and racial backgrounds represented in Scout manuals and the kind of teaching materials that elementary school teachers have is a positive change. My wife's a first grade teacher and I look at some of the things that kids are learning now, and it's different. Somebody realized somewhere along the line that we're going to have to change. That change is still happening. A lot of it culminates in our institutions, whether we're talking about community colleges, four-year institutions or Research One universities. That's the culminating point where, if people haven't learned the lessons by now, they're going to have to learn them the hard way in other settings.

Thank you, Dr. Monts.

Interview with Mr. Luna

Berg: Many of our readers probably are not familiar with "POD." Can you briefly explain what the Professional and Organizational Development Network in Higher Education* is?

Luna: POD is an organization that focuses on faculty development and provides opportunities for faculty, staff and administration to dialogue about enhancing teaching and learning. It is for anyone interested in improving higher education through teaching, through research or is interested in improving their skills and teaching through research.

Berg: I know that POD has a committee on diversity that you chair. Why is such a committee important?

Luna: It's important because it offers an opportunity to explore issues that are essential for higher education. It creates a dialogue. It gives faculty an opportunity to explore those issues that are very important within the classroom and essential for student development. It also allows them to have a conversation and perhaps do research on issues of diversity.

Berg: When many people think of diversity, they think about the affirmative action case at the University of Michigan or think about diversity in terms of a black and white issue. Do you believe that diversity is much more than that?

Luna: Definitely, diversity is about understanding the human experience.

Berg: How; would you define diversity?

Luna: Diversity is a concept that: allows people to understand what it means to be human. That's how I define diversity. Therefore, it's not about race. It includes race, but it's not just about race. It's about the uniqueness of each individual and understanding all those factors that make that individual unique. It's important because people need to be understood. Therefore, issues of disability, issues of gender, issues of sexual orientation-all of those are part of diversity. We

* www.podnetwork.org are beginning to explore them, but there are a lot of other issues-regional diversity, economic diversity-all of those are essential in order to understand the human experience.

Berg: When I mentioned this interview with my students, one said I should ask you how a teacher can handle the different cultures in a classroom that might not appear to be diverse, like "goths," "skaters," "prep," or "backer." To you, is that part of diversity?

Luna: Yes, I do believe that. Each one has an energy within us which is reflected through our interest. It's very hard to understand an individual's interest without listening to him or her. Therefore, if you have a "skater," someone who is passionate about that, this person has something to contribute to the discussion. For example he might say, "The reason I skate is because it's my way to release my energy." In order to make a connection with this student, a teacher needs to recognize that skateboarding is how this person gets energized. In order to really promote diversity within the classroom, you need to allow students to express themselves freely, embody the feelings and thinking and ideas they have and relate it to what they're learning in the classroom from a textbook. Students need to feel included and that they are respected and heard.

Berg: Some might say that's all well and good, but why is it important to recognize and acknowledge diversity in the classroom? Aren't students just there to learn and we should just teach them?

Luna: The process itself is sometimes more important than the teaching itself. Depending on the field of study-even in the sciences-there has to be a human experience there. It is important to recognize, why is this person trying to become an engineer? Students expect to really be understood and not just be talked at. They want to be engaged.

Berg: You're saying that as a faculty member, I really need to appreciate the diversity of my students so I can engage them.

Luna: Yes, regardless of the discipline.

Berg: How might I do that?

Luna: See students as contributors of knowledge. Really ask them questions. Real questions; questions that produce research. Treat them with respect by asking them hard questions, not just lecturing at them. Say, "This is what we know so far, but in addition to that, what else? What's missing here?" That's very important, I think, when the students are able to talk about that. Consider a female who is studying to become an engineer. She may have a passion for it but has never been given the opportunity to express herself, to say why she wants to become an engineer. Do you understand what I'm trying to say/

Berg: I do. But how do we do that?

Luna: Treat them with respect. See them as contributors. Validate their diverse experience. Encourage discussion and selfexpression within the classroom.

Berg: You mentioned looking, at the student as a vessel of knowledge. You are currently a graduate student and that's what you're being taught in graduate school. Many of our readers are of my generation. When we were in grad school, we were trained that teachers are the fountains of knowledge. It was our job to impart knowledge to the student. How can I move from being the focal point of my classroom-the fountain of knowledge-to bringing students in. What techniques can I use?

Luna: You just have to take it to another step. As confident people, it is fine for professors to see themselves as fountains of knowledge; that's a good concept. They're just missing one more step. They need to allow students to react to that, even if they feel a little bit uncomfortable. Perhaps allow students to react through papers, through discussion or by finding other ways to engage students. Teachers can lecture for two hours but must find ways to really get student feedback on the lecture. I think that would definitely complete the engagement piece.

Berg: Can you offer a suggestion of one technique I might try in class, let's say, tomorrow. What's something I could do in class tomorrow to engage students when all I've been doing lately is lecturing?

Luna: Perhaps begin with a question. Find out what students know before introducing a concept. I think students will value that greatly. Any person who has the orientation of the "fountain of knowledge" will be more empowered by realizing, "Wow! Students do know something, but they're missing something and I'm going to give it to them." Asking questions right at the beginning, real questions-expecting students to do the reading-the type of questions which really engages them, which challenges them. Another way to engage students is to do a project. Have them do a project such as, "React to what I say," and grade it. That would be another way of engaging them, to see if they are listening. Do you understand?

Berg: Yes, and that brings to mind the classroom environment. What is the value of having a diverse student body? I could see using a technique to engage students, but I could use that technique in a fairly homogeneous situation. What would having a diverse group of students add to my classroom?

Luna: I would say it would give you a view of the real world. Having students of diverse backgrounds will automatically do that without too much effort-without saying "just rely on the books." A diverse student body provides direct experiences for students to react quickly right there and then. I think having a diverse student body forces both the faculty and the students to analyze the different value systems. Let's assume you have a group of students of the same background. We tend to take for granted a lot of things. When we have a diverse student body, we make a conscious effort to be more broadened because the students are diverse. Those are some of the immediate benefits.

As I was reflecting on this question, one of the things that I have noticed in students is that they are eager for real experiences. They want to volunteer. Once we were going to a Thanksgiving dinner and we needed only 20 students, but 100 of them went there because they wanted to give back. Students are looking for diversity of experiences. They want to interact with people from China or other countries and they want to do that right now; they don't want to wait five years from now. The knowledge is there and the experience is there. It is the responsibility of educators to create an environment that allows students to experience diversity.

Berg: Remember in August 2003, when the Northeast part of the United States was blacked out? That came up in discussion today and a student said, "You know that wasn't a big deal; that happens in my country all the time!" It really changed the nature of the discussion, h got us thinking, "What happens in parts of the world where this is a common experience?"

Luna: That's an excellent example. I don't think that discussion would have taken place if you didn't have someone with a different experience, from a different background. In a similar way, perhaps, we take for granted the way we store food. Most of us have refrigerators. Most families can cook and leave leftovers in the refrigerator for five days. Sometimes we take that for granted. A great percentage of the world population lives without all these privileges that we have. Have students talk about those experiences-and encourage them to analyze and think, "I need to keep learning, because it's all a piece of this education. I'm not just doing this for me. I need to look deeper." I think some students tend to say, "Oh, I'm going to go abroad because I want to get a better experience." When the students come from abroad, they don't want to come back, they want to continue having different experiences. I'm assuming what they love is a different perspective on viewing the world. I think that's what students ar looking for.

Berg: There are some who are critical of the idea of diversity and look at it as just the trend of the moment. One of those people is Stanley Fish who argues that diversity is not a condition that anyone actually desires. It seems to me that what you're saying is that people really do desire that experience of diversity.

Luna: Yes, I do think that we cannot create an artificial diversity. Perhaps through books we can get some of it, but the actual reality of diversity is in the interaction. I think people want that. If people are not exposed to it, they may not want it. But once people experience true diversity, they are not the same, and therefore they strive to maintain or create a diverse environment.

Berg: That sounds like a nice place to stop. Is there anything I've missed?

Luna: Another question that I've heard asked is whether diversity contributes to intellectual development.

Berg: Yes, that is a good question.

Luna: It's a powerful question, I think. I personally feel that any environment, any diverse environment that allows people to express themselves freely really contributes to the intellectual development of all. Don't take that literally because I need to explain what I'm saying. I'm saying that from one standpoint it might look like diversity is not efficient for some groups of people. I'm Hispanic. If I'm the only Hispanic in the classroom, the other students who are not Hispanic-if they are European-American-they might not benefit from my experience. I would suggest that from the standpoint of an Hispanic person, the lack of diversity is hindering the intellectual development. It depends how you look at it. It is essential to have supportive systems within the classroom in order to encourage intellectual development. It is important to have not just one Hispanic kid, you need to have two or three-or two or more African-Americans-so that one view doesn't overwhelm the other. What happens is that some students tend to hold back. They'd rather not say anything because of the overwhelming social feeling that they would not be understood. Therefore their intellectual development is hindered from that perspective. The one who suffers the most from the lack of diversity is the minority.

Berg: I've seen, too, that people tend to think an individual speaks for the entire group. That is-using your example of being Hispanic-all Hispanic: must be like you, must think like you.

Luna: You're right and that's a very big issue. It's a lot of pressure and it hinders students' participation. Sometimes we have to figure out whose intellectual development is being diminished. I think any diverse experience-the more diverse it is, the greater the intellectual development. I'm not saying that the same group, the same racial group, cannot provide that. But the discussion would he richer in the university setting or college setting if we have multiple views, differing experiences.

I appreciate your taking to us.

Steven L. Berg

Dr. Berg is Assistant Professor of English and History at Schoolcraft College in Livonia, Michigan.

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